I’m not sure academia is quite unsalvageable - I know people who put in a lot of work to make education both interesting and, you know, educational. However, they’re also the ones complaining that admins pressure them to wave through students who don’t show up to class half the time, and that literature students, who presumably want to dedicate their professional lives to reading good books, were in fact skimming SparkNotes. (This was the olden days, before ChatGPT. Scholars speculate that students of the prior age carved their summaries into stone walls, or “cliff notes”). Certainly engineering professors didn’t put up with that, though; hopefully they’re still holding out.
Thanks man. I think there are large parts of academia that should be saved, most hard core researchers do good work, I just think the ~system~ is broken.
I was shocked for example in my CS classes I took at Stanford how widespread cheating was. The rot just keeps spreading.
… Engineer here. Never took an engineering course in college in my life. Scraped together enough experience working with other engineers to qualify to sit for the Professional Engineering exam.
In the best autodidactic tradition, I reviewed the entire field of civil engineering in about 12 months, focused on geotechnical engineering, sat for the PE exam, failed the first time, passed the second time— armed with the knowledge of how actually to take the test— and I have been a professional engineer for 24 years.
Apologies to those who believe that academia is a cathedral of some sort. It has never been more than an elitist cash cow. Not that you couldn’t learn something useful in four years of drinking and fornicating, but necessity drives learning just as it drives everything else. Older professionals will tell you that they learned most of their trade on the job.
The research model is also fundamentally flawed. Tuition does pay for a lot of research, but a significant portion is funded from outside of the institution. This means that a good portion of research time and money reflects donor priorities.
Ya I think they picked the worst possible name so people don’t try and use the program to get a free masters from the GSB. It sounds like an online certificate.
I work full time while attending an MBA program now. The things I'm learning are useful. Of course there is nothing I've learned that I couldn't otherwise learn on my own, but you'd have to have god-like discipline to do it without shortcuts.
The professors are sort of unnecessary at best. Their main role is as class administrators rather than actual educators. Despite this, I think the whole charade would fall apart if professors were replaced with a random, non-credentialed educator.
I myself am an R&D engineer and read a lot of scientific literature (in the material science field). Business academia is very odd to me. Economics starts looking like hard science compared to some of these other fields of study. Leadership, management, business psychology, strategy, etc. Very flimsy stuff. Like you say, there are also fields like accounting, finance, and business law which are, by nature, not really valid as scientific fields of study. And if you do study them scientifically, it just becomes economics.
What's your stance on the MBA? I find that academics usually have very low opinions of the degree, even at top schools. Have gotten some incredibly salty comments about it from people in academia, borderline insulting.
I think MBAs are good for what they are, retooling people and creating a network. My only real problem with them is how insanely inflated their costs are and the degree to which they encourage a specific “mba” version of English that can become an unofficial requirement to know
Hey, Peter! I had a similar experience, although I ended up leaving empty-handed after finishing my course work for the PhD but not having finished (or started!) the dissertation. I’ll tell you that my time in academia was not wasted, and that I have managed to get all sorts of jobs I really wasn’t qualified for. I have also written and published when I was in the mood for it.
It can be hard making the decision you did, and even harder to explain to others. I found it hard to explain myself. As someone who’s been there, I’m impressed with your choice (and your writing). I have a feeling you’ll be just fine!
I remember how one of the accounting PhD that took classes with us asked me about a top accounting paper’s econometrics. He wanted to make sure he wasn’t crazy about how bad their econometrics and thus conclusions were.
Thank god I haven’t signed a non disparagement clause with my program. Stanford was good in the sense that they really tried to just make us economists and I took the econ classes but at lower ranking schools…. Don’t even get me started
Not that I know you or anything but I think you made the right decision long term. I’ve seen people really struggle to enter the private sector after a life in academia.
Work for a company that builds things. On your own initiative bring in business. He who brings money into the organization can do whatever the f* he wants.
“But what I want to emphasize here is that reform is functionally impossible in any system where the people you are attacking control the measurement system. You basically just have to fire everyone and restart from zero—or at least present that as a viable outcome if they don’t get their act together.”
Tbh, this is why I think Trump should send in vigilantes to just beat up lots of academics. They’re not going to relinquish control otherwise, and they’re selfishly screwing things up for everyone.
How about devoting themselves to the discovery of truth and its inculcation in the youth whom they are supposed to guide towards critical thinking and independence? There is no conflict whatever, and there never has been, between education and research when the goal is genuine scholarship.
But no, disdaining the ages-old goal of scholarship, the pseudo-intellectuals -- who have fed at the trough of academia, paid for by working people compelled against their will by the state apparatus to give up a large portion of their earnings to keep these "academicians" employed who couldn't find a job otherwise -- these pseudo-intellectuals renounced even the very existence of truth a century ago. And they told their charges that they sure as heck couldn't find what didn't exist. Who can trust them with the practice of education when all they do is waylay young people and stuff their minds full of hogwash.
Fire the hacks. Hire real scholars. Search for truth. Feed your charges with nutritious ideas. That was the goal of a real -- not fake -- liberal education and can be again.
Good luck to you.
I’m not sure academia is quite unsalvageable - I know people who put in a lot of work to make education both interesting and, you know, educational. However, they’re also the ones complaining that admins pressure them to wave through students who don’t show up to class half the time, and that literature students, who presumably want to dedicate their professional lives to reading good books, were in fact skimming SparkNotes. (This was the olden days, before ChatGPT. Scholars speculate that students of the prior age carved their summaries into stone walls, or “cliff notes”). Certainly engineering professors didn’t put up with that, though; hopefully they’re still holding out.
Thanks man. I think there are large parts of academia that should be saved, most hard core researchers do good work, I just think the ~system~ is broken.
I was shocked for example in my CS classes I took at Stanford how widespread cheating was. The rot just keeps spreading.
… Engineer here. Never took an engineering course in college in my life. Scraped together enough experience working with other engineers to qualify to sit for the Professional Engineering exam.
In the best autodidactic tradition, I reviewed the entire field of civil engineering in about 12 months, focused on geotechnical engineering, sat for the PE exam, failed the first time, passed the second time— armed with the knowledge of how actually to take the test— and I have been a professional engineer for 24 years.
Apologies to those who believe that academia is a cathedral of some sort. It has never been more than an elitist cash cow. Not that you couldn’t learn something useful in four years of drinking and fornicating, but necessity drives learning just as it drives everything else. Older professionals will tell you that they learned most of their trade on the job.
The research model is also fundamentally flawed. Tuition does pay for a lot of research, but a significant portion is funded from outside of the institution. This means that a good portion of research time and money reflects donor priorities.
You can sit for the PE exam without an engineering degree?
PE?
Professional Engineer
Thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts!
Yes, in Maryland and a few other states. I had 12 years of experience.
Congrats! I did the same thing almost a decade ago (OB, not accounting). Are they still giving out the prestigious MA in Business Research?
now sure how prestigious it is but that is what I have!
Ya I think they picked the worst possible name so people don’t try and use the program to get a free masters from the GSB. It sounds like an online certificate.
Wishing you luck.
I work full time while attending an MBA program now. The things I'm learning are useful. Of course there is nothing I've learned that I couldn't otherwise learn on my own, but you'd have to have god-like discipline to do it without shortcuts.
The professors are sort of unnecessary at best. Their main role is as class administrators rather than actual educators. Despite this, I think the whole charade would fall apart if professors were replaced with a random, non-credentialed educator.
I myself am an R&D engineer and read a lot of scientific literature (in the material science field). Business academia is very odd to me. Economics starts looking like hard science compared to some of these other fields of study. Leadership, management, business psychology, strategy, etc. Very flimsy stuff. Like you say, there are also fields like accounting, finance, and business law which are, by nature, not really valid as scientific fields of study. And if you do study them scientifically, it just becomes economics.
What's your stance on the MBA? I find that academics usually have very low opinions of the degree, even at top schools. Have gotten some incredibly salty comments about it from people in academia, borderline insulting.
Thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts!
I think MBAs are good for what they are, retooling people and creating a network. My only real problem with them is how insanely inflated their costs are and the degree to which they encourage a specific “mba” version of English that can become an unofficial requirement to know
Man if you're gonna succeed in industry you've gotta learn to indulge the ego of MBAs way more than this
I’ll succeed or fail on my own terms 😤
Congrats, godspeed, and I can only say I'm jealous... I have 5~ more years of this stuff
🫡
Hey, Peter! I had a similar experience, although I ended up leaving empty-handed after finishing my course work for the PhD but not having finished (or started!) the dissertation. I’ll tell you that my time in academia was not wasted, and that I have managed to get all sorts of jobs I really wasn’t qualified for. I have also written and published when I was in the mood for it.
It can be hard making the decision you did, and even harder to explain to others. I found it hard to explain myself. As someone who’s been there, I’m impressed with your choice (and your writing). I have a feeling you’ll be just fine!
Thanks man 🫶
Congrats on graduating!
Thanks!
Welcome to Virginia!
🙏
Let me know if your ever in NOVA and wanna meet up
I remember how one of the accounting PhD that took classes with us asked me about a top accounting paper’s econometrics. He wanted to make sure he wasn’t crazy about how bad their econometrics and thus conclusions were.
Thank god I haven’t signed a non disparagement clause with my program. Stanford was good in the sense that they really tried to just make us economists and I took the econ classes but at lower ranking schools…. Don’t even get me started
“This is endogenous, right?”
“That is hella endogenous.”
💀
Best of luck, Peter. Any idea what you’ll do next?
Thanks! I’m working with @The Boyd Institute to try and launch a hostile takeover of DC(I exaggerate slightly)
I hope you succeed! Best of luck with it all.
I worked in DC for a month or so back in 2017 and loved the city. Seems like it could be a great place to live and work.
Not that I know you or anything but I think you made the right decision long term. I’ve seen people really struggle to enter the private sector after a life in academia.
Thanks man!
Good luck! It sounds like you made a good choice.
At minimum is was a good choice for me
Work for a company that builds things. On your own initiative bring in business. He who brings money into the organization can do whatever the f* he wants.
“But what I want to emphasize here is that reform is functionally impossible in any system where the people you are attacking control the measurement system. You basically just have to fire everyone and restart from zero—or at least present that as a viable outcome if they don’t get their act together.”
Tbh, this is why I think Trump should send in vigilantes to just beat up lots of academics. They’re not going to relinquish control otherwise, and they’re selfishly screwing things up for everyone.
Hard Hat Riot 2.0
🇺🇸 💪🏻
I for one hope you return with torch and sword and use them liberally
How about devoting themselves to the discovery of truth and its inculcation in the youth whom they are supposed to guide towards critical thinking and independence? There is no conflict whatever, and there never has been, between education and research when the goal is genuine scholarship.
But no, disdaining the ages-old goal of scholarship, the pseudo-intellectuals -- who have fed at the trough of academia, paid for by working people compelled against their will by the state apparatus to give up a large portion of their earnings to keep these "academicians" employed who couldn't find a job otherwise -- these pseudo-intellectuals renounced even the very existence of truth a century ago. And they told their charges that they sure as heck couldn't find what didn't exist. Who can trust them with the practice of education when all they do is waylay young people and stuff their minds full of hogwash.
Fire the hacks. Hire real scholars. Search for truth. Feed your charges with nutritious ideas. That was the goal of a real -- not fake -- liberal education and can be again.